THE HON DR ANNE ALY MP

Minister for Early Childhood Education

Minister for Youth

GREG JENNETT, HOST: So, where does the Opposition's refusal to back the international student caps now leave the government? Well, to discuss that and more in the education portfolio, Anne Aly is Minister for Youth and Early Childhood Education and she's with us in the studio. Anne welcome back. Why don't we start with something that is squarely within your remit? And we'll come to international student caps in a moment. The Senate is due perhaps this evening, maybe tomorrow, to debate the Early Childhood and Care Workers Special Account. This is pretty much under your name. It's the vehicle that gives the 15 per cent pay rise to workers over two years. Why exactly do you need a special account to store that money?

MINISTER ANNE ALY: Well, Greg, we know from all the reports that we've had, but also through engagement with the sector, that this is an essential service and that workers in early childhood education and care just weren't getting a fair wage. It wasn't a wage that met their needs and it wasn't a wage that reflected their professionalism or their level of skill. There was a workforce crisis in early childhood education and care. And since coming into government, we've worked diligently to address that workforce crisis, to ensure that there are workers who can come into the system through our fee-free TAFE, workers who stay in the system through this worker retention payment and through a $72 million professional development package as well. The reason that we needed to do it as a grant is because we realised how urgent it was. Now, we gave powers to the Fair Work Commission to have a look at the wages of early childhood educators. But considering where the workforce was and the absolute essential need to address the wages issue for the workforce, we put it in as a grant, as an interim grant for two years, granting them that 15 per cent.

JENNETT: Right. So, it only has a single purpose, does it? Because I noticed in the explanatory memorandum, the account will be time limited and will cease to have effect on 30 June 2028. So, why is its purpose over and done by that date?

ALY: Because when we changed the laws, the IR laws, to give the Fair Work Commission the ability to hear the case of early childhood educators based on gender equality. That process, we think, is intended to deliver early childhood educators a fair wage, one that reflects the essential services that they provide, their professionalism and the level of skill. But in the interim, we need something. We need something to keep those workers from draining out of the sector from centres closing or having to close rooms, allowing centres to stay open and have access to a workforce that has an assurance that they have a liveable wage. So, we've set up this grant in the interim to deal with that. And it doesn't just come - it doesn't come without conditions because attached to it, is a condition that centres do not increase their fees above 4.4 per cent and a condition that that extra money goes directly into the pockets of early childhood educators.

JENNETT: All right, very briefly, because I want to move on to international student caps. You'd be confident, are you, about its passage through the Senate?

ALY: Yes, pretty confident that - I mean, who's going to say no to early childhood educators getting a much-needed pay rise?

JENNETT: All right, well, I admire your confidence because not every Minister can be confident about what's going on in the Senate at the moment. So, let's move to international student caps. It does appear to be on shaky ground. Because of what we said before, the Coalition looks like they'll be voting against it. What happens then?

ALY: Well, let me just start by saying it's pretty extraordinary and actually quite baffling that the Coalition is joining with the Greens to block this, considering that Peter Dutton has thus far thrown his support behind student caps or caps on international students. And it begs the question, like, Australians just can't trust Peter Dutton on anything, whether it's on immigration in this case or anything else for that matter. Look, I think there is still negotiating to do. I don't know.

JENNETT: With whom?

ALY: Well, it'll have to be the Minister for Education, Jason Clare, will have to talk to the crossbench and with the Coalition. But I don't know what the intent behind this is. I don't think anybody knows what the intent behind this is because Peter Dutton has always maintained that they would support a cap on international students, and now they've done a complete turnaround. How are we to trust him on anything?

JENNETT: I don't disagree with the back catalogue of quotes. I have some of them here. I won't read them out, but he certainly has supported, in principle, the idea of student caps. But you are suggesting that the way is still open here –

ALY: Well, I would hope so. That's up to the Education Minister. But as the Education Minister said this morning, if the legislation doesn't get through, there is still a Ministerial order in place –

JENNETT: Which the sector despises, that's called Ministerial Direction 107. They reckon it is even worse for them, the universities than the cap would be. So, would the government replace 107 with some new Ministerial Direction?

ALY: That would be up to the Minister. But what we do know is that there are de facto caps in place already. There is a Ministerial Direction 107. And what we know is that you can't trust Peter Dutton.

JENNETT: Is it true that more than 1 million foreign students, former and current, are in the country? That's a number that the Coalition's putting about today.

ALY: Oh, I don't know. I'd have to fact check those ones, particularly if it's coming from the Coalition. And if that's the number that they're putting out, why are they refusing to back a bill that would limit the number of international students?

JENNETT: All right, let's see where those negotiations go. It looks doomed, but who knows, it might be brought back from the brink. And also moving on to the Treasurer confirming today that his department is looking at a system that might level the playing field for banks when it comes to the physical network of branches that they operate. It could involve payments by some to others. This is an issue in Western Australia, one which I think we've discussed before, where the Commonwealth Bank subsidiary Bankwest is in the process of closing branches. Why is this the fair solution to even a doubt?

ALY: Well, I think, you know, if you live in a rural regional area or if you're not used to Internet banking like many older Australians are, my mum is a prime example of that. You know, closing the closure of bank branches has a, has a significant impact on you. And you know, as the Treasurer said, you know, there are discussions happening all the time with banks. We want to ensure that people in rural and regional areas are not disadvantaged by bank closures. We want to ensure that all Australians have an equality of service when it comes to banking.

JENNETT: Is that cross-subsidisation, though, that the well-heeled banks, the wealthier banks, should and could be required to fund those which never even started with a branch structure, to begin with?

ALY: Well, you know, I think a lot of people who are banking at a physical bank, you know, haven't and don't have. If you started with the bank, like I started, for example, with ING, that never had a physical bank to begin with, I wouldn't expect that ING would then have a physical bank. But if you've started with a physical bank like the Commonwealth or Westpac or any of the other big four, and that's taken away from you and the only way that you have for banking is through a physical branch, then I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that, you know, you want to continue with, with banking at a physical branch.

JENNETT: All right, yeah. I think, as we understand it, that's the complexity that the Treasury is wrestling with at the moment. Anne Aly, a busy day around here. We'll wrap it up. Thank you. Somehow I think it's going to get even busier over the remainder of the sitting fortnight.

ALY: Absolutely. Thanks so much Greg.
 

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